Youkai "Distinguishing Animal Attributes"

[Josiah Malkuth]

I have a question of concern for my character, which could potentially ruin him as a Youkai. In the Youkai Primer, it says that:

"Youkai have at most three different forms which they are able to shift between upon reaching maturity. They have a form that is solely the form belonging to the variety of animal they are, such as a wolf form or lion form; they also one that is totally human and one that is somewhere in between both. "

And then in the Cultual Notes, it says that:

"As youkai, they can change into a youkai "half form", which is their human form with distinguishing animal attributes such as ears or a tail."

Now, I was under the impression that their third form was up to our own design, but while reading up on other characters, I came across the conversation about Youkai and -Jin on Rajah Nagoyaka's page.

In it, Isurugi Mei said that:

"if you're going to be a Youkai you can't have an in-between form or hybrid form. There is a race that has the hybrid qualities and they are the -Jin."

That contradicts what the Notes already say about the Youkai having a form "that is somewhere in between both." However, then Tomo said that:

"Youkai have an inbetween form, but it a Human form with ears and a tail attached, with possible claws/eye changes."

From the Primer and the loose phrasing of the Cultural Notes ("such as ... or ..." imply examples, not limitations), I was fully under the impression that the Youkai's "in between" form (as phrased by the Notes) was a hybrid form, with the equivalent appearance of a werebeast of their animal.

So now, my question is this: is that really the full extent of the "in between" form, or did it get changed in the last few years? The Youkai Primer is listed as having been edited in 2009, a year after the other posts were made, so I wasn't sure if that was something that was changed expressly, or if it just wasn't made clear enough.

If that is the case (ears and tail only) then I need to change my character's profile from Panda to something else. Since my character doesn't know he's youkai and hasn't shown any signs of being youkai, and since the Notes say that a youkai born in the Mythical Realm chooses his form later, then the only thing I'd need to change would be what type of youkai he chooses. The fact of the matter is, way down the line when my character goes hybrid youkai in dangerous situations, I saw it as a full-fledged "grow a foot and pack on fur and muscle in seconds" werebear. I did not see it as suddenly sprouting mickey mouse ears and getting a black fuzzball on his butt. <.<

...

I apologize if this is an inconvenience, but yeah, that image kinda ruins it for me ...

[Isurugi Mei]

The in-between form for a youkai is what you found right there. The would have the ears, tails, or maybe antlers depending on what animal they take on. But considering that you're a panda, I don't think an in-between form would work then. I would believe that the panda would be an exception to the in-between form since it would seem ridiculous especially from your description of it. Although you could just stick with the claws and/or teeth for the in-between form which could work.

All the editing that we have done on this board are really from what we encounter that does and doesn't work so just bare with us if the info seems confusing. If you have any more questions don't be afraid to ask.

[Sanada Tomo]

Alright. I know what's going on here. <3 I took a chance at guessing when I read the first few sentences.

First of all, the Youkai are quite different now than they were when Kiseki was first moved here. Rei was in charge of the youkai and she had all sorts of crazy things going on. Last year, I revamped the youkai section. If you look on my to-do list in the Announcements board, you'll see a small post somewhere in there about finishing the revamp.

But I digress from that and move on to explain: When we revamped the youkai, the forms that they had didn't change--it was actually one of the few things that stayed the same. As the primer says now, they have a full on animal form, a full human form, and a form that is the human with accentuated features--ears and tail, longer nails, etc. There used to be images in the post, and we've been working with that particularly well-known version of an "in-between form" for years, so when I did the revamp I didn't specific what that form looked like. I apologize. It's hard keeping up with changing information and checking up on mistakes if people give you benefit of the doubt because they know what you're talking about despite inadequate phrasing. I thank you for pointing it out and I'm going to definitely change it sometime today. As you quoted, it does say that in the Youkai notes, but redundant information is the friend of someone writing so much reference material that laps over sometimes. Again, I apologize.

When Mei referred to the hybrid form in her post about the Jin on Rajah's profile, she was referencing the desire that we had from some people to have anthropomorphic creatures on the RPG. She was stating, basically, that youkai HAVE to settle for the human form--with ears, tail, nail, etc.--as a version of an in between form because Jin are the race that specifically have anthropomorphic features: fur, claws, ears, tail et al. in their humanoid forms. Jin do not have any human or human-like form at all, and at the time Rajah was originally trying to make a youkai character with the "were" idea that you're presenting now as his own in between form. Of course, he's modified his profile since then and made his character a jin to be accepted, and that's how we have the remaining conversation.

The problem here, as you can see, is that we're referencing two different ideas of "in between forms", which are being interpreted differently on two related subjects.

So, in regards to you final concern, no, youkai do not have a "hybrid form" in your interpretation. There's no "werebear." Josiah is able to change into three forms--the human, that he is accustomed to already; the half form that you've referenced as "suddenly sprouting mickey mouse ears and getting a black fuzzball on his butt", and then finally the full on Panda form.

On a separate but slightly related issue, there are kumaneko(panda)-jin, which would the closest thing to the "werebear" that you're mentioning.

[Sanada Tomo]

Also, as far as Rajah's character goes, I usually leave conversations about characters up for reference in case there is a permission issue later, but considering how easily...ah, led astray? by that particular discussion, I'll delete it. Nevermind about this. I actually think that particular conversation is useful, considering the member that we were dealing with.

I would also like to add that despite not having a were-form, being able to change into a large bear that happens to have masses of muscle to use at its discretion is just as frightening formidable as a werebear. You may not like the in between form, but disliking one out of three still leaves you with an impressive majority.

[Josiah Malkuth]

Well, since you told me to voice my opinions, Tomo, then the one thing I can say is this: the phrasing in the Primer and the Notes needs to be changed to fit what's just been said, especially the part about the in between form. Slapping ears and a tail on a human being does not make them in between anything, it makes them all human with ears and a tail. <.<

And no, I do not just "dislike" one out of the three. I find it absolutely ridiculous. I'll be choosing a different Youkai form (toss up between any of the cats, but I am not doing the ear thing) and then making the edit to my profile to make it official. Or since he's from the Mythical Realm, I could just leave it blank and decide later, when the character decides for himself after witnessing what is most needed.

On a related note, what about the other youkai? Do the Aves youkai sprouts feathers off their butt? Do the Squamata and the Aves get holes on the side of the head? Half of the other youkai similar to the Ursidae have fluffball tails like the Usagi and Cervidae. Excepting felidae and canidae, this "ear and tails" thing just doesn't make sense to me for the majority of youkai.

[Isurugi Mei]

You know what, I want to thank you for bringing this issue up because I haven't really thought about it really, even after I made my youkai character some time ago.

I don't know how a bird youkai would be like, or any other of the majority of the youkai would look like with their animal attributes on a person. But I do know that when I made up the shika youkai I just thought of them as having deer ears and horns. I had no intentions of having a complete human form for my deer youkai character but I guess when Tomo put the info I gave to her under the Cervidae family, I guess its really up to the user on what they decide. And that goes with any of the other youkai, if you want your character to have certain attributes then I guess its fine as long as follows whats there and either me or Tomo approves of it.

[Sanada Tomo]

Jul 8, 2010 10:56:19 GMT -4 Josiah Malkuth said:

Well, since you told me to voice my opinions, Tomo, then the one thing I can say is this: the phrasing in the Primer and the Notes needs to be changed to fit what's just been said, especially the part about the in between form.

Well, I did change the youkai to reflect the specific example you brought up from the notes. As far as the other clans, I can list specific options for the in between form if you'd like. That would really only take a few minutes.

Jul 8, 2010 10:56:19 GMT -4 Josiah Malkuth said:

And no, I do not just "dislike" one out of the three. I find it absolutely ridiculous. I'll be choosing a different Youkai form (toss up between any of the cats, but I am not doing the ear thing) and then making the edit to my profile to make it official. Or since he's from the Mythical Realm, I could just leave it blank and decide later, when the character decides for himself after witnessing what is most needed.

Feel free to change to whatever you feel you need to. Just make sure that you change your profile accordingly; I'd be grateful if you informed me when you made the change final.

Jul 8, 2010 10:56:19 GMT -4 Josiah Malkuth said:

On a related note, what about the other youkai? Do the Aves youkai sprouts feathers off their butt? Do the Squamata and the Aves get holes on the side of the head? Half of the other youkai similar to the Ursidae have fluffball tails like the Usagi and Cervidae. Excepting felidae and canidae, this "ear and tails" thing just doesn't make sense to me for the majority of youkai.

The ears and tail idea does not translate across the board; I simply listed the most obvious and simple ones. With other youkai, the changes would be more subtle for the most part--although I would like to note that having tailfeathers isn't as...ah...crude as how you phrase it. The feathers are at the base of the spine, just like with any other tail, if I recall correctly. It also wouldn't be too difficult to assign the squamata features like scaly skin. I also point out that there's nothing wrong with a fluffball tail.

Jul 8, 2010 11:26:18 GMT -4 Isurugi Mei said:

You know what, I want to thank you for bringing this issue up because I haven't really thought about it really, even after I made my youkai character some time ago.

I don't know how a bird youkai would be like, or any other of the majority of the youkai would look like with their animal attributes on a person. But I do know that when I made up the shika youkai I just thought of them as having deer ears and horns. I had no intentions of having a complete human form for my deer youkai character but I guess when Tomo put the info I gave to her under the Cervidae family, I guess its really up to the user on what they decide. And that goes with any of the other youkai, if you want your character to have certain attributes then I guess its fine as long as follows whats there and either me or Tomo approves of it.

Pretty much what Mei said. Also, that's very much what I envisioned the shika youkai to look like as well.

[Fae NPC]

Mei here

I really hope you're not confused by all this info we're giving you, we're doing our best to help you out.

[Josiah Malkuth]

Okay so ... what does that mean for my character in particular then? The only distinguishing animal attribute of a panda is their fur (and size being an attribute of bears in general).

(I apologize for my irreverance, but you said to give my opinion. My opinion of this is "Grrr, Im part of a powerful beastial race known across the realms for our brute strength. STOP LAUGHING AT MY EARS!")

(Added: I'm not confused by it, but with your comments on flexibility, I'm just not hearing a straight answer on what to do about it.)

[Sanada Tomo]

I wasn't aware that you were asking for options XD I thought that you were just clarifying.

You're going to have to either:

1. Stay with what you've got and work with it

2. Move to another youkai species--but you'll still have the cuteness problem.

3. Change you character's race to something else.

I'd prefer if you tried not to do three, as you've already gotten a long narrative and two threads with Josiah as a youkai. I mean, you can rework it all if you want, and have no problem helping you with deleting threads and such, but I am aware of the work that you've put in thus far.

[Isurugi Mei]

I also gave the option in an earlier post of your character not having a human form with panda attributes so that would just leave a complete human and animal form for you to work with. So I hope these options work for you.

[Sanada Tomo]

Jul 8, 2010 13:45:51 GMT -4 Isurugi Mei said:

I also gave the option in an earlier post of your character not having a human form with panda attributes so that would just leave a complete human and animal form for you to work with. So I hope these options work for you.

Yes, that's also possible, that he could just not develop that particular form. Or, even if he does you can make it so that your own character doesn't like it and never uses it.

[Josiah Malkuth]

I think I've decided on the Shishi (lion) youkai instead. Its distinguishing animal attributes would be more in line with his appearance, though there is one thing I'd like to add. One of the most iconic features of a male lion is the mane, and since Josiah already has long brown hair, I'd like for one of his d.a.a.'s to be that his hair gets longer and more manelike in other words. Beyond that, the other d.a.a's - a tail, claws, golden eyes and heck, even the ears - are all fitting of his "in between" (I think we should find a better word for it then that, because of the word choice confusion) form and would actually be pretty cool. Since Time is a support magic anyway, it fits into the Shishi youkai choice as well. Is that acceptable?

[Isurugi Mei]

That sounds acceptable.

[Sanada Tomo]

Yes. I suppose that's agreeable.

[Josiah Malkuth]

Well then thank you, thank you. ^^

I apologize for the hassle, but the whole point of him being a youkai was to have a half side that was fierce looking in clear juxtaposition with his nice guy normal side. Finding out it instead would make him look that silly ... well, yeah. Thanks for letting me fix it now. The change has been made in his profile.